From andrew at humeweb.com Sun Jun 1 05:31:41 2025 From: andrew at humeweb.com (andrew at humeweb.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 12:31:41 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] On the unreliability of LLM-based search results (was: Listing of early Unix source code from the Computer History Museum) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: generally, i rate norman’s missives very high on the believability scale. but in this case, i think he is wrong. if you take as a baseline, the abilities of LLMs (such as earlier versions of ChatGP?) 2-3 years ago was quite suspect. certainly better than mark shaney, but not overwhelmingly. those days are long past. modern systems are amazingly adept. not necessarily intelligent, but they can (but not always) pass realistic tests, pass SAT tests and bar exams, math olympiad tests and so on. and people can use them to do basic (but realistic) data analysis including experimental design, generate working code, and run that code against synthetic data and produce visual output. sure, there are often mistakes. the issue of hullucinations is real. but where we are now is almost astonishing, and will likely get MUCH better in the next year or three. end-of-admonishment andrew > On May 26, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Norman Wilson wrote: > > G. Branden Robinson: > > That's why I think Norman has sussed it out accurately. LLMs are > fantastic bullshit generators in the Harry G. Frankfurt sense,[1] > wherein utterances are undertaken neither to enlighten nor to deceive, > but to construct a simulacrum of plausible discourse. BSing is a close > cousin to filibustering, where even plausibility is discarded, often for > the sake of running out a clock or impeding achievement of consensus. > > ==== > > That's exactly what I had in mind. > > I think I had read Frankfurt's book before I first started > calling LLMs bullshit generators, but I can't remember for > sure. I don't plan to ask ChatGPT (which still, at least > sometimes, credits me with far greater contributions to Unix > than I have actually made). > > > Here's an interesting paper I stumbled across last week > which presents the case better than I could: > > https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5 > > To link this back to actual Unix history (or something much > nearer that), I realized that `bullshit generator' was a > reasonable summary of what LLMs do after also realizing that > an LLM is pretty much just a much-fancier and better-automated > descendant of Mark V Shaney: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V._Shaney > > Norman Wilson > Toronto ON From luther.johnson at makerlisp.com Sun Jun 1 05:46:16 2025 From: luther.johnson at makerlisp.com (Luther Johnson) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 12:46:16 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] On the unreliability of LLM-based search results (was: Listing of early Unix source code from the Computer History Museum) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e4339e9-bf9a-2b72-b47a-f20f81a153b5@makerlisp.com> I think when no-one notices anymore, how wrong automatic information is, and how often, it will have effectively redefined reality, and humans, who have lost the ability to reason for themselves, will declare that AI has met and exceeded human intelligence. They will be right, partly because of AI's improvements, but to a larger extent, because we will have forgotten how to think. I think AI is having disastrous effects on the education of younger generations right now, I see it in my workplace, every day. On 05/31/2025 12:31 PM, andrew at humeweb.com wrote: > generally, i rate norman’s missives very high on the believability scale. > but in this case, i think he is wrong. > > if you take as a baseline, the abilities of LLMs (such as earlier versions of ChatGP?) 2-3 years ago > was quite suspect. certainly better than mark shaney, but not overwhelmingly. > > those days are long past. modern systems are amazingly adept. not necessarily intelligent, > but they can (but not always) pass realistic tests, pass SAT tests and bar exams, math olympiad tests > and so on. and people can use them to do basic (but realistic) data analysis including experimental design, > generate working code, and run that code against synthetic data and produce visual output. > > sure, there are often mistakes. the issue of hullucinations is real. but where we are now > is almost astonishing, and will likely get MUCH better in the next year or three. > > end-of-admonishment > > andrew > >> On May 26, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Norman Wilson wrote: >> >> G. Branden Robinson: >> >> That's why I think Norman has sussed it out accurately. LLMs are >> fantastic bullshit generators in the Harry G. Frankfurt sense,[1] >> wherein utterances are undertaken neither to enlighten nor to deceive, >> but to construct a simulacrum of plausible discourse. BSing is a close >> cousin to filibustering, where even plausibility is discarded, often for >> the sake of running out a clock or impeding achievement of consensus. >> >> ==== >> >> That's exactly what I had in mind. >> >> I think I had read Frankfurt's book before I first started >> calling LLMs bullshit generators, but I can't remember for >> sure. I don't plan to ask ChatGPT (which still, at least >> sometimes, credits me with far greater contributions to Unix >> than I have actually made). >> >> >> Here's an interesting paper I stumbled across last week >> which presents the case better than I could: >> >> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5 >> >> To link this back to actual Unix history (or something much >> nearer that), I realized that `bullshit generator' was a >> reasonable summary of what LLMs do after also realizing that >> an LLM is pretty much just a much-fancier and better-automated >> descendant of Mark V Shaney: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V._Shaney >> >> Norman Wilson >> Toronto ON > From arnold at skeeve.com Sun Jun 1 06:09:07 2025 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 14:09:07 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] On the unreliability of LLM-based search results (was: Listing of early Unix source code from the Computer History Museum) In-Reply-To: <3e4339e9-bf9a-2b72-b47a-f20f81a153b5@makerlisp.com> References: <3e4339e9-bf9a-2b72-b47a-f20f81a153b5@makerlisp.com> Message-ID: <202505312009.54VK97bQ4163488@freefriends.org> It's been going on a for a long time, even before AI. The amount of cargo cult programming I've seen over the past ~ 10 years is extremely discouraging. Look up something on Stack Overflow and copy/paste it without understanding it. How much better is that than relying on AI? Not much in my opinion. (Boy, am I glad I retired recently.) Arnold Luther Johnson wrote: > I think when no-one notices anymore, how wrong automatic information is, > and how often, it will have effectively redefined reality, and humans, > who have lost the ability to reason for themselves, will declare that AI > has met and exceeded human intelligence. They will be right, partly > because of AI's improvements, but to a larger extent, because we will > have forgotten how to think. I think AI is having disastrous effects on > the education of younger generations right now, I see it in my > workplace, every day. > > On 05/31/2025 12:31 PM, andrew at humeweb.com wrote: > > generally, i rate norman’s missives very high on the believability scale. > > but in this case, i think he is wrong. > > > > if you take as a baseline, the abilities of LLMs (such as earlier versions of ChatGP?) 2-3 years ago > > was quite suspect. certainly better than mark shaney, but not overwhelmingly. > > > > those days are long past. modern systems are amazingly adept. not necessarily intelligent, > > but they can (but not always) pass realistic tests, pass SAT tests and bar exams, math olympiad tests > > and so on. and people can use them to do basic (but realistic) data analysis including experimental design, > > generate working code, and run that code against synthetic data and produce visual output. > > > > sure, there are often mistakes. the issue of hullucinations is real. but where we are now > > is almost astonishing, and will likely get MUCH better in the next year or three. > > > > end-of-admonishment > > > > andrew > > > >> On May 26, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Norman Wilson wrote: > >> > >> G. Branden Robinson: > >> > >> That's why I think Norman has sussed it out accurately. LLMs are > >> fantastic bullshit generators in the Harry G. Frankfurt sense,[1] > >> wherein utterances are undertaken neither to enlighten nor to deceive, > >> but to construct a simulacrum of plausible discourse. BSing is a close > >> cousin to filibustering, where even plausibility is discarded, often for > >> the sake of running out a clock or impeding achievement of consensus. > >> > >> ==== > >> > >> That's exactly what I had in mind. > >> > >> I think I had read Frankfurt's book before I first started > >> calling LLMs bullshit generators, but I can't remember for > >> sure. I don't plan to ask ChatGPT (which still, at least > >> sometimes, credits me with far greater contributions to Unix > >> than I have actually made). > >> > >> > >> Here's an interesting paper I stumbled across last week > >> which presents the case better than I could: > >> > >> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5 > >> > >> To link this back to actual Unix history (or something much > >> nearer that), I realized that `bullshit generator' was a > >> reasonable summary of what LLMs do after also realizing that > >> an LLM is pretty much just a much-fancier and better-automated > >> descendant of Mark V Shaney: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V._Shaney > >> > >> Norman Wilson > >> Toronto ON > > > From luther.johnson at makerlisp.com Sun Jun 1 07:53:07 2025 From: luther.johnson at makerlisp.com (Luther Johnson) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 14:53:07 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] On the unreliability of LLM-based search results (was: Listing of early Unix source code from the Computer History Museum) In-Reply-To: <202505312009.54VK97bQ4163488@freefriends.org> References: <3e4339e9-bf9a-2b72-b47a-f20f81a153b5@makerlisp.com> <202505312009.54VK97bQ4163488@freefriends.org> Message-ID: <0adb7694-f99f-dafa-c906-d5502647aaf0@makerlisp.com> I agree. On 05/31/2025 01:09 PM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > It's been going on a for a long time, even before AI. The amount > of cargo cult programming I've seen over the past ~ 10 years > is extremely discouraging. Look up something on Stack Overflow > and copy/paste it without understanding it. How much better is > that than relying on AI? Not much in my opinion. (Boy, am I glad > I retired recently.) > > Arnold > > Luther Johnson wrote: > >> I think when no-one notices anymore, how wrong automatic information is, >> and how often, it will have effectively redefined reality, and humans, >> who have lost the ability to reason for themselves, will declare that AI >> has met and exceeded human intelligence. They will be right, partly >> because of AI's improvements, but to a larger extent, because we will >> have forgotten how to think. I think AI is having disastrous effects on >> the education of younger generations right now, I see it in my >> workplace, every day. >> >> On 05/31/2025 12:31 PM, andrew at humeweb.com wrote: >>> generally, i rate norman’s missives very high on the believability scale. >>> but in this case, i think he is wrong. >>> >>> if you take as a baseline, the abilities of LLMs (such as earlier versions of ChatGP?) 2-3 years ago >>> was quite suspect. certainly better than mark shaney, but not overwhelmingly. >>> >>> those days are long past. modern systems are amazingly adept. not necessarily intelligent, >>> but they can (but not always) pass realistic tests, pass SAT tests and bar exams, math olympiad tests >>> and so on. and people can use them to do basic (but realistic) data analysis including experimental design, >>> generate working code, and run that code against synthetic data and produce visual output. >>> >>> sure, there are often mistakes. the issue of hullucinations is real. but where we are now >>> is almost astonishing, and will likely get MUCH better in the next year or three. >>> >>> end-of-admonishment >>> >>> andrew >>> >>>> On May 26, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Norman Wilson wrote: >>>> >>>> G. Branden Robinson: >>>> >>>> That's why I think Norman has sussed it out accurately. LLMs are >>>> fantastic bullshit generators in the Harry G. Frankfurt sense,[1] >>>> wherein utterances are undertaken neither to enlighten nor to deceive, >>>> but to construct a simulacrum of plausible discourse. BSing is a close >>>> cousin to filibustering, where even plausibility is discarded, often for >>>> the sake of running out a clock or impeding achievement of consensus. >>>> >>>> ==== >>>> >>>> That's exactly what I had in mind. >>>> >>>> I think I had read Frankfurt's book before I first started >>>> calling LLMs bullshit generators, but I can't remember for >>>> sure. I don't plan to ask ChatGPT (which still, at least >>>> sometimes, credits me with far greater contributions to Unix >>>> than I have actually made). >>>> >>>> >>>> Here's an interesting paper I stumbled across last week >>>> which presents the case better than I could: >>>> >>>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5 >>>> >>>> To link this back to actual Unix history (or something much >>>> nearer that), I realized that `bullshit generator' was a >>>> reasonable summary of what LLMs do after also realizing that >>>> an LLM is pretty much just a much-fancier and better-automated >>>> descendant of Mark V Shaney: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V._Shaney >>>> >>>> Norman Wilson >>>> Toronto ON From audioskeptic at gmail.com Sun Jun 1 08:36:14 2025 From: audioskeptic at gmail.com (James Johnston) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 15:36:14 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] On the unreliability of LLM-based search results (was: Listing of early Unix source code from the Computer History Museum) In-Reply-To: <0adb7694-f99f-dafa-c906-d5502647aaf0@makerlisp.com> References: <3e4339e9-bf9a-2b72-b47a-f20f81a153b5@makerlisp.com> <202505312009.54VK97bQ4163488@freefriends.org> <0adb7694-f99f-dafa-c906-d5502647aaf0@makerlisp.com> Message-ID: Well, I have to say that my experiences with "AI based search" have been beyond grossly annoying. It keeps trying to "help me" by sliding in common terms it actually knows about instead of READING THE DAMN QUERY. I had much, much better experiences with very literal search methods, and I'd like to go back to that when I'm looking for obscure papers, names, etc. Telling me "you mean" when I damn well DID NOT MEAN THAT is a worst-case experiences. Sorry, not so much a V11 experience here, but I have to say it may serve the public, but only to guide them back into boring, middle-of-the-road, 'average mean-calculating' responses that simply neither enlighten nor serve the original purpose of search. jj - a grumpy old signal processing/hearing guy who used a lot of real operating systems back when and kind of misses them. On Sat, May 31, 2025 at 2:53 PM Luther Johnson wrote: > I agree. > > On 05/31/2025 01:09 PM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote: > > It's been going on a for a long time, even before AI. The amount > > of cargo cult programming I've seen over the past ~ 10 years > > is extremely discouraging. Look up something on Stack Overflow > > and copy/paste it without understanding it. How much better is > > that than relying on AI? Not much in my opinion. (Boy, am I glad > > I retired recently.) > > > > Arnold > > > > Luther Johnson wrote: > > > >> I think when no-one notices anymore, how wrong automatic information is, > >> and how often, it will have effectively redefined reality, and humans, > >> who have lost the ability to reason for themselves, will declare that AI > >> has met and exceeded human intelligence. They will be right, partly > >> because of AI's improvements, but to a larger extent, because we will > >> have forgotten how to think. I think AI is having disastrous effects on > >> the education of younger generations right now, I see it in my > >> workplace, every day. > >> > >> On 05/31/2025 12:31 PM, andrew at humeweb.com wrote: > >>> generally, i rate norman’s missives very high on the believability > scale. > >>> but in this case, i think he is wrong. > >>> > >>> if you take as a baseline, the abilities of LLMs (such as earlier > versions of ChatGP?) 2-3 years ago > >>> was quite suspect. certainly better than mark shaney, but not > overwhelmingly. > >>> > >>> those days are long past. modern systems are amazingly adept. not > necessarily intelligent, > >>> but they can (but not always) pass realistic tests, pass SAT tests and > bar exams, math olympiad tests > >>> and so on. and people can use them to do basic (but realistic) data > analysis including experimental design, > >>> generate working code, and run that code against synthetic data and > produce visual output. > >>> > >>> sure, there are often mistakes. the issue of hullucinations is real. > but where we are now > >>> is almost astonishing, and will likely get MUCH better in the next > year or three. > >>> > >>> end-of-admonishment > >>> > >>> andrew > >>> > >>>> On May 26, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Norman Wilson wrote: > >>>> > >>>> G. Branden Robinson: > >>>> > >>>> That's why I think Norman has sussed it out accurately. LLMs are > >>>> fantastic bullshit generators in the Harry G. Frankfurt sense,[1] > >>>> wherein utterances are undertaken neither to enlighten nor to > deceive, > >>>> but to construct a simulacrum of plausible discourse. BSing is a > close > >>>> cousin to filibustering, where even plausibility is discarded, > often for > >>>> the sake of running out a clock or impeding achievement of > consensus. > >>>> > >>>> ==== > >>>> > >>>> That's exactly what I had in mind. > >>>> > >>>> I think I had read Frankfurt's book before I first started > >>>> calling LLMs bullshit generators, but I can't remember for > >>>> sure. I don't plan to ask ChatGPT (which still, at least > >>>> sometimes, credits me with far greater contributions to Unix > >>>> than I have actually made). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Here's an interesting paper I stumbled across last week > >>>> which presents the case better than I could: > >>>> > >>>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5 > >>>> > >>>> To link this back to actual Unix history (or something much > >>>> nearer that), I realized that `bullshit generator' was a > >>>> reasonable summary of what LLMs do after also realizing that > >>>> an LLM is pretty much just a much-fancier and better-automated > >>>> descendant of Mark V Shaney: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V._Shaney > >>>> > >>>> Norman Wilson > >>>> Toronto ON > > -- James D. (jj) Johnston Former Chief Scientist, Immersion Networks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From als at thangorodrim.ch Sun Jun 1 08:30:08 2025 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2025 00:30:08 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] On the unreliability of LLM-based search results (was: Listing of early Unix source code from the Computer History Museum) In-Reply-To: <3e4339e9-bf9a-2b72-b47a-f20f81a153b5@makerlisp.com> References: <3e4339e9-bf9a-2b72-b47a-f20f81a153b5@makerlisp.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 31, 2025 at 12:46:16PM -0700, Luther Johnson wrote: > I think when no-one notices anymore, how wrong automatic information is, and > how often, it will have effectively redefined reality, and humans, who have > lost the ability to reason for themselves, will declare that AI has met and > exceeded human intelligence. They will be right, partly because of AI's > improvements, but to a larger extent, because we will have forgotten how to > think. I think AI is having disastrous effects on the education of younger > generations right now, I see it in my workplace, every day. There are quite a few reports from both teachers and university lecturers that draw a pretty grim picture with two bad developments: - a significant fraction of students use LLMs to cheat their way through school and university, which means they'll never really learn how to learn, acquire knowledge and actually understand things, leaving them dependent on LLM support - this is reported to range from students who just straight up use it as a shortcut to those who feel at a severe disadvantage if they don't follow suit - additionally, social media and short format videos appear to have done an impressive job of ruining attention span and the ability to handle a lack of constant stimulation, making it very hard for teachers to even reach their students We'll have to see how that plays out once these kids and young adults approach "educated workforce" age, but I'm not very optimistic for them. But we also see the opposing trend of parents who do understand the technology (and its potential impacts on young, forming minds) trying to carefully restrict their childrens exposure to these things in order to both limit the damage to them and thus give them better chances in their future. Additionally, some of the smarter young adults seem to be realizing what this does to their age group and are essentially going "I won't let my brain get fried by this and will keep a careful distance" - I have hope for them. We're running some very large scale uncontrolled experiments on still forming minds here with the long term consequences being at best hard to predict and the short term consequences not looking pretty already. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From luther.johnson at makerlisp.com Sun Jun 1 08:47:49 2025 From: luther.johnson at makerlisp.com (Luther Johnson) Date: Sat, 31 May 2025 15:47:49 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] On the unreliability of LLM-based search results (was: Listing of early Unix source code from the Computer History Museum) In-Reply-To: References: <3e4339e9-bf9a-2b72-b47a-f20f81a153b5@makerlisp.com> <202505312009.54VK97bQ4163488@freefriends.org> <0adb7694-f99f-dafa-c906-d5502647aaf0@makerlisp.com> Message-ID: <5aa768ae-8853-f0da-9780-53ca4e9d486f@makerlisp.com> I think we could call many of these responses "mis-ambiguation", or conflation, they mush everything together as long as the questions posed and the answers they provide are "buzzword-adjacent", in a very superficial, mechanical way. There's no intelligence here, it's just amazing how much we project onto these bots because we want to believe in them. On 05/31/2025 03:36 PM, James Johnston wrote: > Well, I have to say that my experiences with "AI based search" have > been beyond grossly annoying. It keeps trying to "help me" by sliding > in common terms it actually knows about instead of READING THE DAMN QUERY. > > I had much, much better experiences with very literal search methods, > and I'd like to go back to that when I'm looking for obscure papers, > names, etc. Telling me "you mean" when I damn well DID NOT MEAN THAT > is a worst-case experiences. > > Sorry, not so much a V11 experience here, but I have to say it may > serve the public, but only to guide them back into boring, > middle-of-the-road, 'average mean-calculating' responses that simply > neither enlighten nor serve the original purpose of search. > > jj - a grumpy old signal processing/hearing guy who used a lot of real > operating systems back when and kind of misses them. > > On Sat, May 31, 2025 at 2:53 PM Luther Johnson > > > wrote: > > I agree. > > On 05/31/2025 01:09 PM, arnold at skeeve.com > wrote: > > It's been going on a for a long time, even before AI. The amount > > of cargo cult programming I've seen over the past ~ 10 years > > is extremely discouraging. Look up something on Stack Overflow > > and copy/paste it without understanding it. How much better is > > that than relying on AI? Not much in my opinion. (Boy, am I glad > > I retired recently.) > > > > Arnold > > > > Luther Johnson > wrote: > > > >> I think when no-one notices anymore, how wrong automatic > information is, > >> and how often, it will have effectively redefined reality, and > humans, > >> who have lost the ability to reason for themselves, will > declare that AI > >> has met and exceeded human intelligence. They will be right, partly > >> because of AI's improvements, but to a larger extent, because > we will > >> have forgotten how to think. I think AI is having disastrous > effects on > >> the education of younger generations right now, I see it in my > >> workplace, every day. > >> > >> On 05/31/2025 12:31 PM, andrew at humeweb.com > wrote: > >>> generally, i rate norman’s missives very high on the > believability scale. > >>> but in this case, i think he is wrong. > >>> > >>> if you take as a baseline, the abilities of LLMs (such as > earlier versions of ChatGP?) 2-3 years ago > >>> was quite suspect. certainly better than mark shaney, but not > overwhelmingly. > >>> > >>> those days are long past. modern systems are amazingly adept. > not necessarily intelligent, > >>> but they can (but not always) pass realistic tests, pass SAT > tests and bar exams, math olympiad tests > >>> and so on. and people can use them to do basic (but realistic) > data analysis including experimental design, > >>> generate working code, and run that code against synthetic > data and produce visual output. > >>> > >>> sure, there are often mistakes. the issue of hullucinations is > real. but where we are now > >>> is almost astonishing, and will likely get MUCH better in the > next year or three. > >>> > >>> end-of-admonishment > >>> > >>> andrew > >>> > >>>> On May 26, 2025, at 9:40 AM, Norman Wilson > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> G. Branden Robinson: > >>>> > >>>> That's why I think Norman has sussed it out accurately. > LLMs are > >>>> fantastic bullshit generators in the Harry G. Frankfurt > sense,[1] > >>>> wherein utterances are undertaken neither to enlighten nor > to deceive, > >>>> but to construct a simulacrum of plausible discourse. > BSing is a close > >>>> cousin to filibustering, where even plausibility is > discarded, often for > >>>> the sake of running out a clock or impeding achievement of > consensus. > >>>> > >>>> ==== > >>>> > >>>> That's exactly what I had in mind. > >>>> > >>>> I think I had read Frankfurt's book before I first started > >>>> calling LLMs bullshit generators, but I can't remember for > >>>> sure. I don't plan to ask ChatGPT (which still, at least > >>>> sometimes, credits me with far greater contributions to Unix > >>>> than I have actually made). > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Here's an interesting paper I stumbled across last week > >>>> which presents the case better than I could: > >>>> > >>>> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10676-024-09775-5 > >>>> > >>>> To link this back to actual Unix history (or something much > >>>> nearer that), I realized that `bullshit generator' was a > >>>> reasonable summary of what LLMs do after also realizing that > >>>> an LLM is pretty much just a much-fancier and better-automated > >>>> descendant of Mark V Shaney: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_V._Shaney > >>>> > >>>> Norman Wilson > >>>> Toronto ON > > > > -- > James D. (jj) Johnston > > Former Chief Scientist, Immersion Networks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Jun 1 09:29:59 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey via TUHS) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2025 09:29:59 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] No Further LLM messages on TUHS Message-ID: All, the LLM conversation is no longer Unix-related. Please take it to COFF if you wish to continue it. Thanks, Warren From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Jun 7 04:09:57 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (segaloco via TUHS) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2025 18:09:57 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? Message-ID: As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? - Matt G. From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jun 7 04:29:54 2025 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 12:29:54 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 6, 2025, 12:10 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation > with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of > historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 > manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. > > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among > your UNIX-y possessions? > My AIX yoyo. And a bootleg copy of lions. Warner > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ron at ronnatalie.com Sat Jun 7 04:33:55 2025 From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ron Natalie) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 14:33:55 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <191C7909-9BEF-4ACF-9122-DDDF92DB9844@ronnatalie.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Jun 7 04:37:29 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (=?utf-8?q?Cameron_M=C3=AD=C4=8Be=C3=A1l_Tyre_via_TUHS?=) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2025 18:37:29 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know if it counts but my ninth printing of the first edition of 𝘋𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘍𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘛𝘺𝘱𝘦𝘴𝘦𝘵𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘰𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘜𝘕𝘐𝘟 𝘚𝘺𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘮 - 𝘝𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘮𝘦 𝘐𝘐 - 𝘨𝘳𝘢𝘱, 𝘮𝘷, 𝘮𝘴 & 𝘵𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘧 is a favorite as it makes me remember being young and wanting to learn more about computers and is still useful today. It's a hardback copy with a very slightly damaged spine but that aside, looks almost new. As an art & design guy, I love the AT&T logo of the time which appears twice in the first few printed pages. It still has a McGraw Hill bookstore price sticker for $31.95 on the back cover. I love it anyway! Cameron Tyre -------- Original Message -------- On 06/06/2025 19:10, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. > > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? > > - Matt G. > From drb at msu.edu Sat Jun 7 04:45:21 2025 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2025 14:45:21 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 06 Jun 2025 18:37:29 -0000.) References: Message-ID: <20250606184521.E38D74EC9ED@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I don't know if it counts but my ninth printing of the first edition > of 𝘋𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘍𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘛𝘺𝘱𝘦𝘴𝘦𝘵𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘰𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘜𝘕𝘐𝘟 𝘚𝘺𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘮 - 𝘝𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘮𝘦 𝘐𝘐 > - 𝘨𝘳𝘢𝘱, 𝘮𝘷, 𝘮𝘴 & 𝘵𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘧 is a favorite as it makes me remember being > young and wanting to learn more about computers and is still useful > today. Is carefully typing the title in characters from the \u10000 moby of unicode the 21st century equivalent of rot-13 encoding the spoilers? :) De From sauer at technologists.com Sat Jun 7 04:45:44 2025 From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer (he/him)) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 13:45:44 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: <191C7909-9BEF-4ACF-9122-DDDF92DB9844@ronnatalie.com> References: <191C7909-9BEF-4ACF-9122-DDDF92DB9844@ronnatalie.com> Message-ID: It seems I should have an AIX yoyo, but I don't think I do. In any case, my answer is the commemorative plated Mike Tilson gave me -- hangs prominently on my wall: https://technologists.com/photos/1987/fullsize/1987ThompsonRitchie.jpg On 6/6/2025 1:33 PM, Ron Natalie wrote: > Dec unix plate.  My “Ron of Unix” button.   The name plate from the > Denelcor HEP supercomputer I designed the io system for and ported much > of 4bsd to. > > >> On Jun 6, 2025, at 14:30, Warner Losh wrote: >> >>  >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 6, 2025, 12:10 PM segaloco via TUHS > > wrote: >> >> As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation >> situation with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty >> appreciable library of historic works.  Among my most treasured >> bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 manual and Bell Labs copies of the >> Lions's Commentary. >> >> What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to >> have among your UNIX-y possessions? >> >> >> My AIX yoyo. And a bootleg copy of lions. >> >> Warner >> -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/LinkedIn/mas.to: CharlesHSauer From johnl at taugh.com Sat Jun 7 05:22:43 2025 From: johnl at taugh.com (John Levine) Date: 6 Jun 2025 12:22:43 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20250606192243.E134ACD33A76@ary.local> It appears that segaloco via TUHS said: >What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? The license plate A photo of a UNIX brand fire extinguisher. A first edition of "UNIX for Dummies" (no surprise there) R's, John From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Jun 7 05:47:30 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Pete Wright via TUHS) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 12:47:30 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: <20250606192243.E134ACD33A76@ary.local> References: <20250606192243.E134ACD33A76@ary.local> Message-ID: <6e175ab4-bf0a-4356-a926-8b10a2a8fe1e@nomadlogic.org> On 6/6/25 12:22, John Levine wrote: > It appears that segaloco via TUHS said: >> What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? > > The license plate > > A photo of a UNIX brand fire extinguisher. > > A first edition of "UNIX for Dummies" (no surprise there) > A print of a draft of The Complete FreeBSD 4th ed. signed by Greg Lehey. Still sitting in its original manila envelope by my desk. A friend (thanks .ike!) got it and gifted it to me when I ended up in the hospital the night before I was supposed to attend BSDCan '05 and couldn't attend. Lots of sentimental value for me in that one for me. -pete -- Pete Wright pete at nomadlogic.org From frew at ucsb.edu Sat Jun 7 07:01:02 2025 From: frew at ucsb.edu (James Frew) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 14:01:02 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Most prized would definitely be what I *think* are "original" copies of the Lions books. I say "think" because they were given to me by John Bruno, who I know did time at Murray Hill before he came to UCSB. (Any OGs on this list remember him?) The source code has a pink cover and the notes has a gold one. Provenance aside, they're special to me since that's the first deep dive I ever took into an operating system. Something like 90% of the lines in the source volume have my handwritten notes, documenting a herculean attempt to Think Like Ken™ Many of my second-tier U-keepsakes got fobbed off on you lot* when I cleared out my office a few years back. Still have the license plate and the RTFM wooden coin... Cheers, /Frew *Apologies to those of you who gave me non-US addresses: shipping stuff internationally was just too painful and $$$. On 2025-06-06 11:09 AM, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. > > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? From dds at aueb.gr Sat Jun 7 08:07:03 2025 From: dds at aueb.gr (Diomidis Spinellis) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 01:07:03 +0300 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39edeb0c-ed78-409b-837e-27857480a3aa@aueb.gr> For me the two-volume book "UNIX System Readings and Applications", published by Prentice Hall in 1987 and 1988, which are reprints of the two Unix special issues of the The Bell System Technical Journal: - Vol. 57, No. 6, July-August 1978 (ISBN 0-13-939845-7), - Vol. 63, No. 8, October 1984 (ISBN 0-13-939845-7). They contain seminal papers describing Unix and its tools. Diomidis - https://www.spinellis.gr/ On 06-Jun-25 21:09, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. > > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? > > - Matt G. From pugs78 at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 11:02:54 2025 From: pugs78 at gmail.com (Tom Lyon) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2025 18:02:54 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I made an album with pictures of my prized possessions: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HLFW389a7AsxwYna9 On Fri, Jun 6, 2025 at 11:16 AM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation > with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of > historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 > manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. > > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among > your UNIX-y possessions? > > - Matt G. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at horsfall.org Sat Jun 7 07:21:20 2025 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 07:21:20 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 2025, segaloco via TUHS wrote: [...] > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have > among your UNIX-y possessions? At one time, the original Lions books and a UNIX plate (all sadly lost during a house move). Oh, and "the" BSTJ and CACM issues, and the UNSW manuals (e.g. "Unix Documention" [sic]), also lost. -- Dave From brantley at coraid.com Sat Jun 7 19:45:49 2025 From: brantley at coraid.com (Brantley Coile) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 09:45:49 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My tattered, original, blue BSTJ from 1978, the first UNIX issue would me my prized UNIX artifact. I got it in 1980. The day after it arrived my wife and father-in-law went to some fancy shopping places in Atlanta as a treat, but I sat in the car reading the issue. I remember reading Ken's paper on how Unix worked internally and not understanding a thing. A few years later, after things like our Kernel Club, a meeting every Wednesday night of a few friends where we would read and discuss sections of the Seventh Edition source, I re-read the article and thought ti was clarity itself. Something the text doesn't change but we do. I read it so much it fell apart. It now lives in a ring binder, its pages have been punched. I've not stopped using Brantley Coile > On Jun 6, 2025, at 2:09 PM, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. > > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? > > - Matt G. From tuhs at tuhs.org Sat Jun 7 20:08:35 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Johan Helsingius via TUHS) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 12:08:35 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The BSTJ, of course, bunch of early editions of the classic UNIX and C books, a signed copy of "UNIX I Kako Ga Koristiti" by Mario Zagar from the Yugoslavian UNIX user group meeting in 1990, a floppy disk with a very early version of Plan 9, and somewhere in a box a bunch of stuff from the first Soviet UNIX Conference, as well as the European UNIX User Group meeting that was held on a cruise boat between Helsinki and Stockholm because the Swedish and Finnish user groups couldn't agree on who should host it. :) I might also have some stuff left from the time Linus Torvalds and I stayed at the Murray Hill Inn when visiting the labs. Julf From als at thangorodrim.ch Sun Jun 8 01:24:54 2025 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 17:24:54 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: <20250606184521.E38D74EC9ED@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20250606184521.E38D74EC9ED@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 06, 2025 at 02:45:21PM -0400, Dennis Boone wrote: > > I don't know if it counts but my ninth printing of the first edition > > of 𝘋𝘰𝘤𝘶𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘍𝘰𝘳𝘮𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘛𝘺𝘱𝘦𝘴𝘦𝘵𝘵𝘪𝘯𝘨 𝘰𝘯 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘜𝘕𝘐𝘟 𝘚𝘺𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘮 - 𝘝𝘰𝘭𝘶𝘮𝘦 𝘐𝘐 > > - 𝘨𝘳𝘢𝘱, 𝘮𝘷, 𝘮𝘴 & 𝘵𝘳𝘰𝘧𝘧 is a favorite as it makes me remember being > > young and wanting to learn more about computers and is still useful > > today. > > Is carefully typing the title in characters from the \u10000 moby of > unicode the 21st century equivalent of rot-13 encoding the spoilers? :) If so, then it only hides from those with bad font setups in their terminals (or email clients for those preferring fancy GUI ones). Perfectly readable here with mutt inside xterm. ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Jun 8 02:37:57 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (=?utf-8?q?Cameron_M=C3=AD=C4=8Be=C3=A1l_Tyre_via_TUHS?=) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2025 16:37:57 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: <20250606184521.E38D74EC9ED@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <_3POobNbfa031iTQy86XmDp9U3edWcDDMLrpzbGT57RkXbKnphZC71Fox_pQXCfa50z1wyjTIiC4yCqN4gDi183A3ICi9TCpA5jteVF3U1I=@protonmail.ch> My apologies to anyone who received gobbledygook in my original message. It was only after I replied to Dennis, off group and thinking he somehow knew my "italics" weren't really italics, that I looked up the u10000 block, saw ancient runes and realized my shortcut had gone awry. Full disclosure, I had ignored my teacher's advice from computing class 40 years ago, that ASCII 0x20 through 0x7E is mostly adequate, and pasted the book title into LingoJam's italics generator webpage and then pasted their italicized output into my email without considering how that worked even though I know. For those who got the unintended gobbledygook, the book title was "Document formatting and typesetting on the UNIX system. Vol. 2: grap, mv, ms, & troff" by Narain Gehani and Steven Lally. Best wishes to all, Cameron Tyre -------- Original Message -------- On 07/06/2025 16:30, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > > Is carefully typing the title in characters from the \u10000 moby of > > unicode the 21st century equivalent of rot-13 encoding the spoilers? :) > > If so, then it only hides from those with bad font setups in their > terminals (or email clients for those preferring fancy GUI ones). > > Perfectly readable here with mutt inside xterm. ;-) > > Kind regards, > Alex. > -- > "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and > looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison > From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Jun 8 03:04:59 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Bakul Shah via TUHS) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 10:04:59 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: <6e175ab4-bf0a-4356-a926-8b10a2a8fe1e@nomadlogic.org> References: <6e175ab4-bf0a-4356-a926-8b10a2a8fe1e@nomadlogic.org> Message-ID: <4C32AA83-41B5-4052-A102-6E90ED8A52F5@iitbombay.org> Just this week I passed on my late friend Rob Warnock’s first edition copy of “The Design and Implementation of the 4.3BSD” book to a FreeBSD user who was very happy to discover it was signed by Leffler & McKusick! [I need to make an online list of all the tech books I want to give away….] > On Jun 7, 2025, at 12:14 AM, Pete Wright via TUHS wrote: > >  > >> On 6/6/25 12:22, John Levine wrote: >> It appears that segaloco via TUHS said: >>> What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? >> The license plate >> A photo of a UNIX brand fire extinguisher. >> A first edition of "UNIX for Dummies" (no surprise there) > > A print of a draft of The Complete FreeBSD 4th ed. signed by Greg Lehey. Still sitting in its original manila envelope by my desk. > > A friend (thanks .ike!) got it and gifted it to me when I ended up in the hospital the night before I was supposed to attend BSDCan '05 and couldn't attend. Lots of sentimental value for me in that one for me. > > -pete > > -- > Pete Wright > pete at nomadlogic.org > From aki at insinga.com Sun Jun 8 04:06:40 2025 From: aki at insinga.com (Aron Insinga) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 14:06:40 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: <_3POobNbfa031iTQy86XmDp9U3edWcDDMLrpzbGT57RkXbKnphZC71Fox_pQXCfa50z1wyjTIiC4yCqN4gDi183A3ICi9TCpA5jteVF3U1I=@protonmail.ch> References: <20250606184521.E38D74EC9ED@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <_3POobNbfa031iTQy86XmDp9U3edWcDDMLrpzbGT57RkXbKnphZC71Fox_pQXCfa50z1wyjTIiC4yCqN4gDi183A3ICi9TCpA5jteVF3U1I=@protonmail.ch> Message-ID: <48741686-2174-4c60-bc8d-c84f09986ba8@insinga.com> Somewhere here I have a PDP-11 Unix-format DECtape.  The contents probably aren't interesting (compiler & macro assembler from college, IIRC) but the format may be.  :-) Anybody know offhand what the last release was before stdio? Thanks. - Aron Insinga From clemc at ccc.com Sun Jun 8 04:34:44 2025 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2025 14:34:44 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: <48741686-2174-4c60-bc8d-c84f09986ba8@insinga.com> References: <20250606184521.E38D74EC9ED@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <_3POobNbfa031iTQy86XmDp9U3edWcDDMLrpzbGT57RkXbKnphZC71Fox_pQXCfa50z1wyjTIiC4yCqN4gDi183A3ICi9TCpA5jteVF3U1I=@protonmail.ch> <48741686-2174-4c60-bc8d-c84f09986ba8@insinga.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 7, 2025 at 2:07 PM Aron Insinga wrote: > > Anybody know offhand what the last release was before stdio? Thanks. > The C compiler in the Sixth Edition predates K&R1 and the stdio library. The Portable I/O Library existed as is included with V6, but not all program use it. "Typesetter C" was released concurrently with the with updated troff typesetter support and was required to compile it. It supplied libS.a as described in K&R1 and compiled on Sixth Edition, although I believe was included in PWB 1.0. By the Seveneth edition, libS.a was removed all its routine were included in libc.a. If you look in the sources in the TUHS archives, you can see the progression. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erik at ono-sendai.com Sun Jun 8 05:29:55 2025 From: erik at ono-sendai.com (Erik Berls) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2025 12:29:55 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41C8E890-5464-4C18-B21D-C283671F064E@ono-sendai.com> Despite many rounds of cleanup, and one pretty big fire, I still have and cherish [at least one of] my “Mentally Contaminated” pins. I may have some books that were elsewhere at the time of the fire, but it’s down to the pin. Of the stuff I lost, I’m missing the two NeXT Cubes the most. :( -=erik. On 6 Jun 2025, at 11:09, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation > with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of > historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 > manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. > > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have > among your UNIX-y possessions? > > - Matt G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tuhs at tuhs.org Sun Jun 8 10:00:57 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Richard Tobin via TUHS) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2025 00:00:57 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9713DC3F-E6CE-49E4-BF57-EC30966927F6@inf.ed.ac.uk> I have several BSD t-shirts, the first of which I bought from Kirk McKusick at, I think, the 1990 London UKUUG conference. Unfortunately it is no longer compatible with my hardware. -- Richard > On 6 Jun 2025, at 19:09, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > As someone who has been quite attentive to the documentation situation with UNIX, I've managed to build out a pretty appreciable library of historic works. Among my most treasured bits are my 3B20S Release 4.1 manual and Bell Labs copies of the Lions's Commentary. > > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have among your UNIX-y possessions? > > - Matt G. The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336. Is e buidheann carthannais a th’ ann an Oilthigh Dhùn Èideann, clàraichte an Alba, àireamh clàraidh SC005336. From arnold at skeeve.com Sun Jun 8 18:45:59 2025 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2025 02:45:59 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Your Most Prized UNIX Artifacts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202506080845.5588jxae274815@freefriends.org> Segaloco via TUHS wrote: > What do folks have around that you're particularly thrilled to have > among your UNIX-y possessions? Gosh, where to start? Both Unix issues of the Bell System Technical Journal, in pretty good shape. Real Bell Labs V8 and V9 manuals, and the published V10 manuals. A first generation photocopy of the USG UNIX 4.0 documents (which Segaloco scanned a while back) with a UNIX 3.0 reference manual. The published version (manuals, CD, floppy) of Plan 9, 3rd edition. First edition awk book signed by all three authors. Both editions of the C book, signed by both authors. All other books by BWK autographed by him. Jon Bentley's books, autographed by him. Rob Pike's signature on one or both of the books he coauthored with BWK. The Design of 4.3 BSD book signed by the authors. A "Sex, Drugs, and UNIX" button, but not the very first one, I think. The PDP-11 with the daemons on it T-shirt, from I think the USENIX 25th anniversary conference. I sent BWK the "UNIX" pens some years go which show up in his memoir about Unix. I didn't keep any for myself. Oh well. That's from memory, I'd have to go browsing the bookshelves in my basement and my closet for more... :-) Arnold