From brunerhome at live.com Fri Aug 1 00:57:19 2025 From: brunerhome at live.com (John Bruner) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2025 14:57:19 +0000 Subject: [TUHS] curator of 2.11BSD patches? Message-ID: Who is the curator of the 2.11BSD patches? I have a couple of candidate fixes for a future patch. Thanks. --John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From crossd at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 01:45:58 2025 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2025 11:45:58 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] curator of 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 11:07 AM John Bruner wrote: > Who is the curator of the 2.11BSD patches? I have a couple of candidate fixes for a future patch. Thanks. For many years, it was Steven Schultz, and he would post patches to comp.bugs.2bsd. I don't know if he's still doing it, nor do I have contact information for him. Patch #490 is from this year, and is on http://www.2bsd.com/2.11BSD/, or the TUHS website, along with other patches (https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/2.11BSD/Patches/). Looks like Frank Wortner uploaded it. - Dan C. From tuhs at tuhs.org Fri Aug 1 02:12:49 2025 From: tuhs at tuhs.org (Martin Renters via TUHS) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2025 12:12:49 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] curator of 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A093510-58C7-4406-B210-0C1AA2FE87BB@teckelworks.com> Steven Schultz is curating them. The sendbug command on 2.11BSD sends reports to bugs at 2bsd.com . Martin > On Jul 31, 2025, at 10:57 AM, John Bruner wrote: > > Who is the curator of the 2.11BSD patches? I have a couple of candidate fixes for a future patch. Thanks. > > --John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From will.senn at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 03:31:08 2025 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2025 12:31:08 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] curator of 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I seem to remember Warner Losh (cced) was doing something with 2.11 patching... I may be misremembering. Will On 7/31/25 10:45 AM, Dan Cross wrote: > On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 11:07 AM John Bruner wrote: >> Who is the curator of the 2.11BSD patches? I have a couple of candidate fixes for a future patch. Thanks. > For many years, it was Steven Schultz, and he would post patches to > comp.bugs.2bsd. I don't know if he's still doing it, nor do I have > contact information for him. > > Patch #490 is from this year, and is on http://www.2bsd.com/2.11BSD/, > or the TUHS website, along with other patches > (https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/2.11BSD/Patches/). > > Looks like Frank Wortner uploaded it. > > - Dan C. From crossd at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 03:35:20 2025 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2025 13:35:20 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] curator of 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 1:31 PM Will Senn wrote: > I seem to remember Warner Losh (cced) was doing something with 2.11 > patching... I may be misremembering. Warner was doing the inverse, trying to get back to 2.11BSD as first cut by UCB. - Dan C. > On 7/31/25 10:45 AM, Dan Cross wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 11:07 AM John Bruner wrote: > >> Who is the curator of the 2.11BSD patches? I have a couple of candidate fixes for a future patch. Thanks. > > For many years, it was Steven Schultz, and he would post patches to > > comp.bugs.2bsd. I don't know if he's still doing it, nor do I have > > contact information for him. > > > > Patch #490 is from this year, and is on http://www.2bsd.com/2.11BSD/, > > or the TUHS website, along with other patches > > (https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/2.11BSD/Patches/). > > > > Looks like Frank Wortner uploaded it. > > > > - Dan C. From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Aug 1 03:41:46 2025 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2025 07:41:46 -1000 Subject: [TUHS] curator of 2.11BSD patches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 7:35 AM Dan Cross wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 1:31 PM Will Senn wrote: > > I seem to remember Warner Losh (cced) was doing something with 2.11 > > patching... I may be misremembering. > > Warner was doing the inverse, trying to get back to 2.11BSD as first cut by UCB. I did make it back to something that's 99% 2.11BSD first tape from UCB. I was going to reverse the process to make a full git history, but never proceeded to that before time demands from other projects made me put this aside. Warner > - Dan C. > > > > On 7/31/25 10:45 AM, Dan Cross wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 11:07 AM John Bruner wrote: > > >> Who is the curator of the 2.11BSD patches? I have a couple of candidate fixes for a future patch. Thanks. > > > For many years, it was Steven Schultz, and he would post patches to > > > comp.bugs.2bsd. I don't know if he's still doing it, nor do I have > > > contact information for him. > > > > > > Patch #490 is from this year, and is on http://www.2bsd.com/2.11BSD/, > > > or the TUHS website, along with other patches > > > (https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/2.11BSD/Patches/). > > > > > > Looks like Frank Wortner uploaded it. > > > > > > - Dan C. From jsg at jsg.id.au Thu Aug 7 11:36:47 2025 From: jsg at jsg.id.au (Jonathan Gray) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2025 11:36:47 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] CSIRO Unix Message-ID: CSIRO is an Australian government research agency with a long history. Siromath, a commercial spinoff, had a binary redistribution license for Unix. The Siromath Unix was called SIRONIX. The Australian Unison computer was sold with SIRONIX. Siromath was also going to provide a version of Unix for the DCR/CSIRONET workstation. At some point they switched to a port of System V/68 from Neology/Softway. Does anyone know why? Or if the CSIRONET workstation got beyond the prototype stage? Did it get cancelled when CSIRONET was privatised? For more background notes see https://github.com/jonathangray/csiro-unix From pugs78 at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 10:57:19 2025 From: pugs78 at gmail.com (Tom Lyon) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 17:57:19 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] EUUG Spring 1990 Proceedings? Message-ID: Anyone holding onto this? Online anywhere? Can I borrow it for scanning? Thx. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pugs78 at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 10:59:24 2025 From: pugs78 at gmail.com (Tom Lyon) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 17:59:24 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] NFS 40th anniversary event Message-ID: Part of https://www.msstconference.org/ Love it or hate it, should be something for everyone -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jsg at jsg.id.au Wed Aug 13 11:05:52 2025 From: jsg at jsg.id.au (Jonathan Gray) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 11:05:52 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] EUUG Spring 1990 Proceedings? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 05:57:19PM -0700, Tom Lyon wrote: > Anyone holding onto this? > Online anywhere? > Can I borrow it for scanning? > Thx. EUUG Spring Conference, 23-27 April, Munich, West Germany, 1990 https://datamuseum.dk/wiki/Bits:Keyword/DKUUG/EUUG From lm at mcvoy.com Wed Aug 13 11:55:09 2025 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2025 18:55:09 -0700 Subject: [TUHS] NFS 40th anniversary event In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20250813015509.GA17097@mcvoy.com> On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 05:59:24PM -0700, Tom Lyon wrote: > Part of https://www.msstconference.org/ > > Love it or hate it, should be something for everyone I think Sun people love it, because the Sun implementation just worked, the rest of the world mostly hates it. I learned this when I left Sun and got to use other NFS implementations, they sucked. We supported BitKeeper on NFS which meant we had to do lock files on NFS on all platforms. Believe me when I say I know that other NFS implementations were a mess. Read all the drama here: https://github.com/bitkeeper-scm/bitkeeper/blob/master/src/port/sccs_lockfile.c I really didn't get the NFS hate until I left Sun. Sun ran their entire company on NFS (and the automounter). The whole experience was super pleasant and it just worked. Other companies didn't work as hard on their implementation, I got the feeling it was "well, we have to support this but don't really want to". And it showed. I believe later versions of Linux approached SunOS level of NFS. -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat From dave at horsfall.org Wed Aug 13 13:05:23 2025 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 13:05:23 +1000 (EST) Subject: [TUHS] NFS 40th anniversary event In-Reply-To: <20250813015509.GA17097@mcvoy.com> References: <20250813015509.GA17097@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Aug 2025, Larry McVoy wrote: > I think Sun people love it, because the Sun implementation just worked, > the rest of the world mostly hates it. I learned this when I left Sun > and got to use other NFS implementations, they sucked. I can vouch for Sun's NFS working well, and others' not so much (zeroed blocks returned etc)... > We supported BitKeeper on NFS which meant we had to do lock files on NFS > on all platforms. Believe me when I say I know that other NFS > implementations were a mess. Read all the drama here: I'm impressed by the workarounds for obscure kernel bugs :-) -- Dave From alvitar at xavax.com Wed Aug 13 15:59:33 2025 From: alvitar at xavax.com (Phillip Harbison) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 00:59:33 -0500 Subject: [TUHS] Greetings! In-Reply-To: References: <20250813015509.GA17097@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <64716bda-3544-4a5c-9710-76496387104e@xavax.com> Thank you to whoever added me to this list! I have been a UNIX & C disciple since 1982. I spent much of the 1980s writing UNIX, BSD, and OSF/1 device drivers. I ran "madhat", the first public access USENET site in Huntsville. Madhat was a homebuilt 68000 running Unisoft's port of System V Release 0. I also set up "uahcs1", the first UNIX and USENET host at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH). Uahcs1 was a Unisys U7000, originally known as the Power 6/32 minicomputer developed by Computer Consoles Inc., running their port of 4.3 BSD. During my career I have worked with UNIX v7, UNIX System V, AIX, BSD, HPUX, IRIX, Linux, MkLinux, OSF/1, Solaris, SunOS, Ultrix, and Xenix, as well as variants such as Mach, Minix, and Xinu. All of my currently active systems run various versions of macOS. In the past my home office was a Microsoft-Free Zone (tm) but alas too many clients insisted on the use of "Word" so I was forced to compromise and partially surrender to the Dark Side (but only in a Windoze VM). One of my current hobby projects is building a RISC processor using 1980 technology, specifically the Am2900 family of bit-slice components. I call it Project Madhat. My goal is to perform as well as a VAX-11/780 at least for integer code. I hope it will eventually run 4.4 BSD. If interested you can read about it here. http://www.xavax.com/madhat/ My professional work is fragmented. For years I've been developing a Massively-Parallel Processor based on the NXP (formerly Freescale or Motorola) T4240 which has 12 PowerPC e6500 cores and built-in Serial RapidIO. The execution units will run a lean microkernel but the overall system will be managed by some flavor of UNIX. I don't currently have any information about the MPP online without an NDA, but I would be happy to answer general questions about it. I was recently motivated by the Russo-Ukraine war to start a company called Trident Droneworks. It is developing systems for the Ukrainian military. If interested you can read about that here. http://tridentdroneworks.com/ Thanks again for adding me. I look forward to discussing UNIX lore. -- Phillip L Harbison From douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu Thu Aug 14 00:00:03 2025 From: douglas.mcilroy at dartmouth.edu (Douglas McIlroy) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:00:03 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] NFS 40th anniversary event In-Reply-To: References: <20250813015509.GA17097@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: I was always sorry that Peter Weinberger's RFS never made it outside Bell Labs. It allowed networking between separately administered systems by mapping UIDs. Doug On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 11:05 PM Dave Horsfall wrote: > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2025, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > I think Sun people love it, because the Sun implementation just worked, > > the rest of the world mostly hates it. I learned this when I left Sun > > and got to use other NFS implementations, they sucked. > > I can vouch for Sun's NFS working well, and others' not so much (zeroed > blocks returned etc)... > > > We supported BitKeeper on NFS which meant we had to do lock files on NFS > > on all platforms. Believe me when I say I know that other NFS > > implementations were a mess. Read all the drama here: > > I'm impressed by the workarounds for obscure kernel bugs :-) > > -- Dave From crossd at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 00:18:34 2025 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 10:18:34 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] NFS 40th anniversary event In-Reply-To: References: <20250813015509.GA17097@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Aug 13, 2025 at 10:00 AM Douglas McIlroy wrote: > I was always sorry that Peter Weinberger's RFS never made it outside > Bell Labs. It allowed networking between separately administered > systems by mapping UIDs. I believe it did? If I recall correctly, it was available with System V, though perhaps I am misremembering. I have no doubt that RFS was technically superior to NFS, but Sun had non-technical market advantages. Assuming that I am remembering correctly, I suspect it was unsuccessful commercially for two reasons: 1. Sun gave NFS (and the associated RPC layer) away for free, under a particularly liberal license, which lead to lots of interoperability (Larry's and Dave's comments notwithstanding). I suspect by the time RFS was available, it was much more expensive and less interoperable across heterogeneous systems. 2. Sun was quite adamant that NFS be stateless, and also not tied to Unix filesystem semantics, whereas (as I understood it) RFS was both stateful and deeply imbued with Unix semantics. Related to (2), while the File System Switch that was developed to support RFS was very elegant, I think that Sun's "vnode" architecture was seen as more flexible, permitting Unix to incorporate support for all sorts of foreign filesystem types (useful when CD-ROMs and things like floppy disks using the MS-DOS FAT format started becoming common). I suppose RFS could have been adapted to use vnodes, but by then it probably wasn't considered worth the effort due to lack of adoption. It may be worth mentioning that some NFS implementations are configurable for UID remapping in the server. I recall Sun environments with NFS and NIS (the mechanism for distributing /etc/passwd, groups, and other administrative data around a network). It was a really pleasant environment, and extremely productive. Properly configured, you could log into essentially any machine on the network and have access to your home directory, common data, locally installed programs (that of course lived on NFS), and so on. It was quite common to tell a colleague to just have a look in your home directory for something you were working on, facilitating collaboration, and so on. Diskless and "dataless" machines were common; the latter being machines that mounted _most_ things from a central NFS server, but had the operating system itself (really, /, /usr and /tmp) locally installed on a disk. It required a lot of effort to maintain, since Unix machines were still fundamentally meant to be standalone, and it wasn't as elegant as Plan 9 ultimately was, but it was very nice for the time. - Dan C. > On Tue, Aug 12, 2025 at 11:05 PM Dave Horsfall wrote: > > > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2025, Larry McVoy wrote: > > > > > I think Sun people love it, because the Sun implementation just worked, > > > the rest of the world mostly hates it. I learned this when I left Sun > > > and got to use other NFS implementations, they sucked. > > > > I can vouch for Sun's NFS working well, and others' not so much (zeroed > > blocks returned etc)... > > > > > We supported BitKeeper on NFS which meant we had to do lock files on NFS > > > on all platforms. Believe me when I say I know that other NFS > > > implementations were a mess. Read all the drama here: > > > > I'm impressed by the workarounds for obscure kernel bugs :-) > > > > -- Dave From arnold at skeeve.com Thu Aug 14 00:59:58 2025 From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2025 08:59:58 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] NFS 40th anniversary event In-Reply-To: References: <20250813015509.GA17097@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <202508131459.57DExwjZ032177@freefriends.org> Dan Cross wrote: > On Wed, Aug 13, 2025 at 10:00 AM Douglas McIlroy > wrote: > > I was always sorry that Peter Weinberger's RFS never made it outside > > Bell Labs. It allowed networking between separately administered > > systems by mapping UIDs. > > I believe it did? If I recall correctly, it was available with System > V, though perhaps I am misremembering. It was a different RFS, developed by USG. It had full Unix semantics, including ioctls and fcntl, for machines of the same architecture. It was stateful, which meant if the server went away, you could hang your shell at the very least. It first came out in SVR3. Earlier versions of SunOS 5 supported it; it was dropped in later versions. It didn't get widespread support both because NFS had a big head start, and because by the time it came out, the SVR3 licensing terms had gotten onerous for most vendors. No disagreement with the rest of you note. :-) Arnold